frotz
@frotz@grenzland.club
Boring old man / Langweiliger alter Mann / 退屈な老人 / 无趣的老头
frotz
@frotz@grenzland.club
I am not a big fan of D&D clerics, so I took them out of my little homebrew. The setting is more like Lord of the Rings than a typical D&D setting.
Instead there is a first aid skill.
But, the problem is, everyone clamours to get first aid. I mean, why not? It is one of the most powerful skills in a game where you take damage.
I just do not know what to think of it. Are adventurers more like combat soldiers? Do combat soldiers get a six week course in First Aid?
I lean more to "No". This is a medieval setting. The characters that have a first aid skill would be wizards and the old wise woman who lurks in the forest and everyone says is a witch but really just knows more than most peasants.
@randomwizard You could give wizards access to more healing spells. The game is a bit mechanically unbalanced without clerics, if characters are to take the sort of stupid risks you expect in a FRPG.
I should go look at the newer Lord of the Rings system. What do they do for healing in there? Or... trying to think of some other grittier fantasy rpgs...
Or, I could just say warriors can get first aid. It is sort of a world building kind of decision.
I wonder what pirates did in the Caribbean, or merchant ships, in the 1700s
@randomwizard @chgowiz No idea. Last LotR themed game I played was MERP/Rolemaster (Iron Crown Enterprises) over 30 years ago.
@randomwizard @chgowiz I guess any ship with a big enough crew would have a "sawbones" / barber surgeon type character and naval surgeons were proper doctors (to the extent such a thing existed at the time).
@randomwizard IDK, man... for me, I would go back to the OD&D class names - a 1st level fighter is a veteran. I agree with the CM/OD&D assertion that adventurers are a bit different than "normal people" in both experience and drive. I would imagine a "veteran" probably has learned a bit of combat and wilderness first aid. Even in medieval settings?
@randomwizard Depends on how common skills are. I mean, in GURPS it wasn't uncommon for everyone to have First-Aid and "Hiking", ferchrissakes. But then again, you also had a few dozen other skills, it didn't really preclude characters from having other skills. Which is what happens in most D&D skill systems.
If it's something everyone wants to have in such games, then frack it, let everyone do it without an investment, put it elsewhere. Herbs are a classic choice. Need to be fresh, so no stocking up on 'em, and thus it's a time constraint: I can speed up healing or be safe for the next bleeding out roll, but that'll take me one or more days.
For harder stuff I did something in my cleric-less games that turned out to be quite close to the "demi-human relics" from the Rules Cyclopedia, just for regular temples: Spells as features of holy sites, not holy people (and you can borrow a spell, but it doesn't recharge and the nice priests would really like the Toe Bone of Skorrn the Smasher back soon)
@mhd I got to admit that my knowledge of GURPs and healing has left my brain. I imagine there are like 20 ways of doing healing but it depends on setting.
@randomwizard Yes, healing varies wildly, but First Aid is still very common in most campaigns I saw as it doesn't really cost you all that much. After a fight, you get 1 HP back just for bandaging, no skill roll needed. Then you can treat shock and with a successful First Aid roll you get back points based on the Tech Level, so for fantasy campaigns usually 1d6-3 points, minimum 1. That won't solve all your healing issues, but it's not bad. And IIRC, a single point gets you First Aid at your IQ level, so even Joe Average has a 50% chance of 1-3 extra HP restored, if the high-IQ co-adventurer isn't there. Way worse spots of spending a point.
But again, this is the game where you might take three different skills of stealing stuff, a plethora of sciences in a sci-fi campaign etc., you're pretty much made of skills. D&D tends to be much more about exceptional abilities, niches etc., so I don't think a First Aid proficiency/skill makes sense, nor does everyone taking 1 level/rank in Heal, even if they're veterans. Heck, if the game is that harsh and preventing fellow adventurers from bleeding out all the time like it's X-Com, I'd niche-protect this even more. At least join the resistance to learn it then ;)
@mhd Right. That is the dilema. Everyone wants first aid. Should I let everyone have it, or should it be more like a witch, scholar, wizard only skill.
I suppose I could make it where it costs a lot more unless you are a wizard, but then I was trying to avoid too much complexity.
Strangely, in the game, so far, it only takes one character with first aid to go around after a battle and heal up people. It sounds it is a lot like the GURPs rules you described.
But, still, everyone in the group wants first aid, just in case.
@randomwizard What system is this? AD&D's proficiencies? How many skill options do I have? Maybe part of the solution is making the other options more interesting.
I also don't even like the phrase "First Aid" in a fantasy setting. Is it named that? Is Heal/Physician something else?
@randomwizard I played without clerics a few times (I don't like "divine magic" at all), but that usually didn't involve skills, so the stop-gaps where always something else. Most of the time just wizards having access to Cure spells, as it should be ;)
I'd just give stop bleeding/stabilize/etc. out for free, but maybe demand some investment for long-term care and diseases. So, sure, you can pick that one rank of "Healing Person", but that means you can take care of one patient a day (not yourself, of course), and cure the sniffles. Maybe.
@mhd Let me query your GURPs knowledge, if you do not mind.
Does GURPs give any alternate name for "First Aid" if you are playing a low tech game?
I was toying with the idea of Chirurgery for "has some skill with dealing with wounds"
which is something I first saw when reading Pendragon long ago.
@mhd Wow. I do not want to bore the internet with my homebrew skill system.
I agree, first aid is a poor name.
The skill system is, probably, mostly, like Runequest or maybe a Fantasy version of Star Frontiers.
They start out with some skills based on a Archetype, then they gets points as they level up.
I have a feeling you would pick it apart in no time flat and tell me to go play GURPs.
@randomwizard
Speaking of witches and healing, might be worth scoping out and simplifying something like the Pathfinder 1e Witch into something more old-school D&D-like.
@pteryx @randomwizard
Over at The Other Side Blog (https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/), Tim has made a LOT of stuff for witches.
I do need to dig through Pathfinder 1e for some ideas. I do think having a Warlock/Witch with some healing abilities might be a nice option in my homebrew.
I vaguely remember reading a Dragon Magazine article about a witch class, and it had something to do with magic candles. Always thought that was a fun and campy idea.
@randomwizard Whats the problem with the cleric? If it is "just" lorewise you could easily change that instead of changing a system that is already balanced in a specific way.
On the other Hand: Let them learn the healing skill and make sure damage taken is not the only threat in your game.
@FrankBlack78 Just a flavor thing mostly. Not really clerics in Middle-earth for example.
@randomwizard There are no (D&D-like)Wizards in middle earth as well. Did you ban them too?
@FrankBlack78 Fair enough. Maybe the game has drifted far enough away that it is not really D&D any more.
@randomwizard I would say: If you want to stay true to the original, play the original e.g. The One Ring, MERS or Rolemaster or something like that.
If not, don't worry too much about it. You could ban the cleric but instead of making healing available for everbody just tweak the cleric to get rid of the religious context. That keeps the game balance as it was intended.
Do you use 5E? Because if you do, I wouldn't worry about healing too much. You can get rid of the cleric no matter what without replacing it with a healing skill. PCs almost always never die in that game anyway.
What in fuck's name is this bullshit? https://osrplus.com/
@e_eric Well there go a few people I never ever want to talk to ... 🤷
@e_eric@grenzland.club
@e_eric “we don’t believe…” If only there was a way to verify those beliefs one way or another… 🤔😄
@mottokrosh @e_eric This isn't bullshit. A bull can't produce enough shit to represent this. This? Is brontosaurus shit.
A player is expressing unhappiness with my house rules regarding magic-users and I’m not sure what to say. I wrote them this way on purpose and I guess the two of us don’t like each other’s vision. If we both agreed that they’re bad, we could just change them but now it feels like one of us will have to play in a game or run a game they don’t like (in a tiny corner of the rules). And sure, usually playing with each other is more important than standing up for aesthetic choices. The work and the art is different from a social activity. I still feel frustrated.
@kensanata now I’m curious about your MU houserules!
@HeyeBodo "Repertoire: The list of spells in your spell book make up your repertoire. It’s size is determined by your level. The table below shows the maximum number of spells in your repertoire and the number of spells you can cast per day. … So, as a second level elf you have two spells (”of the first circle”) in your repertoire, and you can cast two spells (”of the first circle”) per day, without having to pick anything ahead of time. The drawback is that you can neither cast more spells per day nor can you learn more than given by the limits in the table above. If you want to learn a spell without gaining a level, you need to lose one of your existing spells in your repertoire. And you always need a mentor to teach you new spells."
https://alexschroeder.ch/view/2020-01-05_Spellcasters_and_Spell_Lists
@kensanata actually like this a lot. Takes the homework aspect out of the game (= good for spontaneous games e.g. at open tables) and introduces a layer of necessary PC-NPC interaction which increases social embeddedness of MUs - this does something interesting with the setting! Trade-off is an decrease of tactical flexibility on the player‘s side. Was this the point of complaint?
How about moving the issue inside of the game world? Would there be an in character price to pay to magically gain the capacity to memorize multiple spells? Would said characer be willing to pay this price? (probably somewhere on the order of selling one's soul)
CC: @kensanata@tabletop.social
I’m going to side with your player here. Imo your house rule unnecessarily increases challenge of the already challenging vancian magic system even further, drawing tight a corset, that’s already unnecessarily strict.
Your blog entries suggest a heavily GM-centered approach, constantly referring to your vision/concept of how the world should work. I don’t see a lot of consideration with playability or enjoyment for the players.
What value does your house rule add for the players?
@Morgunin What value does ANY rule add for the player? I mean why can't they succeed at all their checks? 🤷
Off hand, I’d say rules constitute the consensual framework everyone trusts to prevent arbitrariness in the game. What’s your view?
If any one player, including the GM, modifies, expands or subtracts these rules without group consensus or input, aren’t they essentially playing Calvinball?
@Morgunin Everybody signed up to play roughly by those rules. So ... pretty darn consensual. The fact that they are not put out by company XYZ should hardly matter.
What does „roughly“ mean?
Edit: I don’t know what “roughly” means in this context, but if they knew and had a copy of the rules, then I guess it’s on them.
On the other hand, I suppose people may have to experience something to judge it for themselves. Does this mean they should be forced to play a game they don’t like?
A while ago, two friends walked away from our The One Ring campaign after more than a year. They didn’t like the rules. We found two new players and everyone is happy.
@Morgunin Nobody "pulled a fast one" and changed the rules without them knowing. The rules have been around for a very long time, publicly available and so on. Admittedly some aspects of the rules have changed over the years, but not this one regarding spells and how they work. Like with every set of rules there are plenty of things one can disagree with (I certainly do disagree with some things) but as per usual once you agree to play by the rules, well, they are the rules.
The "roughly" means that some aspects of the rules are handled differently by different DMs. So @kensanata doesn't care about positioning in combat AT ALL while I care A LITTLE BIT which means combat runs slightly differently according to DM preferences.
Nobody complains about the fact that it's very hard to actually have a character die in these rules. Nobody complains that magic-users need fewer XP to level up in these rules (though admittedly thieves need more). Everybody has played with entourages of characters because that's easily supported and encouraged by our campaigns, yet here they insist on a single character being able to learn ALL SPELLS when it would be easy enough to just add another magic-user to their entourage and try to have that one learn different spells.
So ... I fail to be convinced that the rules or the DMs are at fault. But I will readily admit that one probably only notices this aspect when one has spent some time leveling up a magic-user. Take them to an AD&D game I say. 🤷
@kensanata Oh wait, they ARE in an AD&D game, right? Do they play a magic-user there as well, one that's POWERFUL and to their liking?
@phf They played a pretty high-level fighter/magic-user (that has since died) with a collection of old books and a library to their name…
@kensanata Dr. Preponderance nods, puffs one more time, and then puts aside his pipe. "Ah, properly diagnosed then!"
(I had a funny aside here referencing TNG and Data's experience with Dr. Freud, but recent experiences make me abstain.)
@phf @alex @lkh I'm also curious - asking for a friend >.>
::EDIT:: the server is running snac, so someone would have to create a user for us. I ran snac a while ago - I'm not really impressed with it so I'll pass, I think. 🙁
::EDIT (2):: what the hell - since snac is really about the local timeline, if @lkh is willing, I'd be happy to get a snac account on grenzland.club too.
CC: @frotz@mastodon.sdf.org @phf@tabletop.social @alex@grenzland.club
CC: @lkh@grenzland.club @frotz@mastodon.sdf.org @phf@tabletop.social @alex@grenzland.club
